Subject: Re: baidarka Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:58:26 -0800
From: James Mitchell (mariner@seanet.com)
Date: Wed Dec 06 2000 - 00:41:11 EST
Thankyou for clarifying, Douglas! Does that mean that deadrise would only
be appropriate when speaking of the angle to the first stringer? How would
you express deadrise on a round bottom sailboat? Just curious...
You are absolutely right, expanding the gunwales on Raven would and did
increase rocker. This, of course, was not a problem on Raven (nor would it
be on most baidarkas) as the final straw that led to this surgery was when I
got locked into a trough during a spring squall in Canada and could not turn
her downwind to save me. Literally. I also think the additional rocker has
added greatly to her stability, helping accomplish the other goal of this
rebuild. Heron was planned with this flare in her, so the rocker there was
not affected.
Another aside: I have never understood any purpose to tumblehome. Prijon
built that into some of their sea hulls, and I always found it a curious
design choice. The net effect would be an increase in primary stability but
with a marked decrease in secondary, as the additional heel would not act to
shift the center of bouyancy farther outboard, as happens with flare. The
result, and I have seen this with my own two eyes on a waterlogged
girlfriend, is to make the Prijon hull into one of the wettest surprises in
the business... ahh, this boat is sooo stable... ooops... glug glug.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Ingram" <redcanoe@pangea.ca>
To: <baidarka@lists.intelenet.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2000 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: baidarka Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:58:26 -0800
> A few observations, if I may.
>
> Deadrise is the angle that the bottom of the boat establishes using the
keel
> or centerline as the point of the angle, and a horizontal line, called the
> baseline. For example, a perfectly flat bottom boat has zero deadrise.
>
> Flare is one term ( tumblehome and plumb being the others) used to
describe
> the angle that the sides make relative to a verticle line parallel to the
> centerline.
>
> It has been my observation, when working on canoes when the thwarts are
> removed, that the sides want to spread outwards, therby increasing flare,
> and having comparatively little effect upon dearise.
>
> The increase in flare effected upon an already built structure is
coincident
> with an increase in curvature of the gunnels, that is, they are less
> straight. Now, as the gunnel is a fixed length, this increase in
curvature
> has the interesting effect of reducing the distance between the stems.
> While the difference will not dramatically affect the boats length, it is
> enough to significantly affect the amount of rocker. As the stems are
> pulled closer together, they are pulled up. If you need help to visualize
> this, use a letter envelope to simulate the boat.
>
> Douglas Ingram
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: James Mitchell <mariner@seanet.com>
> To: <baidarka@lists.intelenet.net>
> Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 4:21 PM
> Subject: Re: baidarka Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:58:26 -0800
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > If I understand your terms correctly, I am talking about the angle of
the
> > deadrise. You are correct about the "V" being decreased at the keel.
> > Because of the way I did this, the effect is proportionally larger as
you
> > approach the gunwale; therefore there is very little impact on
waterline;
> > and even less impact on the angles at the keel. I haven't had a chance
to
> > paddle in wind yet, and such would be a very subjective test anyway;
> > however, Heron and Orca have much the same flare/keel arrangement and
> track
> > very well.
> >
> > I would guess that the tightness of the skin has more to do with
tracking
> > than the changes I made. Because of some unfortunate temperature and
> > humidity changes, Raven's skin came out looser than I wanted (hurray for
> > working outside). But one benefit of a loose skin is better tracking,
> > because the keel and the stringers become more exposed as the skin wraps
> > around them.
> >
> > Incidentally, Raven, Orca, and Chinook are all for sale if anyone is
> > interested.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Native Ways" <nativeways@hotmail.com>
> > To: <baidarka@lists.intelenet.net>
> > Sent: Monday, December 04, 2000 1:54 PM
> > Subject: Re: baidarka Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:58:26 -0800
> >
> >
> > > James,
> > > When you peak of "flare" are you talking about the beam, or the dead
> rise
> > > from the keel to the chine, making it more of a V hull? It sounds like
> you
> > > increased the beam on Raven at mid-ships but left the old ribs as-is
> which
> > > would, I think, flatten the bottom a little, effectively making less
> "V",
> > > and a shallower cock-pit area. No? How is tracking with a beam wind
> > compared
> > > to before?
> > > Greg
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: "James Mitchell" <mariner@seanet.com>
> > > >Reply-To: baidarka@lists.intelenet.net
> > > >To: <baidarka@lists.intelenet.net>
> > > >Subject: Re: baidarka Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:58:26 -0800
> > > >Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2000 18:32:55 -0800
> > > >MIME-Version: 1.0
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> (PST)
> > > >From owner-baidarka@ns1.intelenet.net Sat Dec 02 18:47:18 2000
> > > >Message-ID: <006e01c05cd1$58265000$c79c2640@hjdm2528>
> > > >References: <OE69qJfhUbfh9aKOMpZ00002180@hotmail.com>
> > > >X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400
> > > >Sender: owner-baidarka@lists.intelenet.net
> > > >Precedence: list
> > > >
> > > >Yeah, I think flare has a lot more to do with the stability than does
> > width
> > > >per se. Since our discussion, I completed and tested Raven. I can now
> > hang
> > > >her on her gunwale and spin her; previously, I couldn't take my eyes
> off
> > > >the
> > > >water. This is the second hull I have done this too, the first being
> > Orca,
> > > >with same result. And Heron, which was designed from the beginning
with
> > the
> > > >additional secondary flare, I have actually dosed off while sitting
in
> > the
> > > >reeds at Spencer Island in the late afternoon summer sun. I think
you
> > > >could
> > > >fish all day in that boat.
> > > >
> > > >----- Original Message -----
> > > >From: "Phil Sharp" <srelt@msn.com>
> > > >To: "BaidarkaSubmission" <baidarka@lists.intelenet.net>
> > > >Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2000 5:22 PM
> > > >Subject: Re: baidarka Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:58:26 -0800
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > Thanks for the idea James. I had not considered doing it that
way.
> I
> > > >had
> > > > > thought about increasing gunwale width, but then proportionately
> > > >increasing
> > > > > the stringer width as well, and maybe adding one more stringer
each
> > > >side
> > > >to
> > > > > support the added width. Your idea is intiguing, though. Now, do
> you
> > > >do
> > > >any
> > > > > fishing from your kayak, and if not, do you think you could if you
> > > >wanted
> > > >to?
> > > > > Sorry it took me so long to get back to you; I have been out of
> town.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Phil Sharp
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > SeaCaller
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: James Mitchell
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2000 9:39 PM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To: baidarka@lists.intelenet.net
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Subject: Re: baidarka Date: Tue, 21 Nov 2000 17:58:26 -0800
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Phil, I recently modified my first hull to increase its stability.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Originally it was 17'-2" x 20.5", now it is 17'-1.5" by 22.25".
All
> > the
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > increase is at the gunwale. I replaced all the deck beams to
> increase
> > > >the
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > width, moving the old ones forward a station (and retrimming
them).
> > > >Most
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > had to be replaced.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The modification has worked very well. With no noticeable impact
on
> > > >speed,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I have easily increased the effective stability nearly double to
the
> > > >point
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > where I can hang the hull on its gunwale clear above the cockpit
> rim.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Prior, if I tried that, it would have capsized. What I have
> confirmed
> > > >here
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > is the impact of flare on the stability. I would encourage you to
> > build
> > > >as
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > much flare into your hull as possible. That way the stability will
> be
> > > >there
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > when needed, but won't slow you down when you don't.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > From: "Phil Sharp" <srelt@msn.com>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > To: "BaidarkaSubmission" <baidarka@lists.intelenet.net>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2000 8:26 AM
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Do any of you fish regularly from your Baidarkas? If so, did
you
> > > >change
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > the
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > dimensions to make it more stable? What are those
> > dimensions--length,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > width?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Thanks.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > SeaCaller
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > >
> >srelt@msn.com___________________________________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Get more from your time online. FREE MSN Explorer download :
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